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  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by meby View Post
    Thanks Timebuilder!

    We're well aware of Mike Holt and his products. Mike serves as our main NEC Consultant for the magazine. We also sell many of his training products through EC&M Books. He does a wonderful job of explaining the NEC rules and requirements is a clear and concise manner.
    I'm aware of Mike's relationship to the magazine.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  2. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearfromobx View Post
    Question for you about the CSST Heartman...
    Are you refering to not electrically bonding the CSST to the appliance cabnet? I would have thought the CSST would be electrically bonded to the appliance when the metalic gas connection fittings are attached between the CSST and the gas inlet (to my knowledge, the gaskets in the fittings don't act as dielectrics).
    There are two questions in the area of CSST:

    1) bonding CSST to help eliminate perforations due to lightning strikes to or near to the property. The NEC has distanced itself from this situation. There is an ongoing discussion in committees about this issue.

    2) bonding the CSST to comply with NEC 250.104 B, which states that gas piping is a type of "other metal piping" that must be bonded to the electrical system. Because gas piping often serves appliances like ranges and dryers that ALSO use electricity, the gas piping falls under the category of "likely to become energized," and therefore it falls under the bonding provision requirements of the article in question.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I'm aware of Mike's relationship to the magazine.
    Maybe I'll see you at Mike's place in the next year or two...?
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  4. #17
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    Dec 2012
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    Overland Park, KS
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    45
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Maybe I'll see you at Mike's place in the next year or two...?
    I'm actually going to be in Orlanda next week on business and will have dinner with Mike one night while I'm there. I'll also see him a few times late in the year when we join forces with him to offer some 2014 Code Change Conferences in Seattle, Boston, St. Louis and Philadelphia.
    Mike Eby
    Editor-in-Chief, EC&M Magazine
    http://www.ecmweb.com

  5. #18
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    Great! Let me know when you are coming to Philly!

  6. #19
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    Aug 2004
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    S.E. Pa
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    The building codes have deferred the issue of bonding CSST to each mfr.. Since all this lightning litigation has come up, several mfrs have developed their own optional CSST products that have additional bonding intrinsic to the polyester jacket extrusion, such as Trac Pipe's "CounterStrike" and Gastite's "FlashShield" products. The basic concept is to provide more mass to handle the over current and allow it to dissipate to a good ground. Most installers will get into trouble by taking short cuts in the bonding to the EGC such as hopping over to a nearby pipe. Read the listed instructions. Most will require bonding at in the distribution panel at the buss bar or directly outside to the EGC when you are using CSST right off the meter or MP regulator with LPG systems.

    I highly recommend anyone who got certified years ago to take a refresher in your brand of CSST the next time the rep. is around.

    Mike, there is talk of bonding all factory built fireplaces and metallic chimneys but currently, I'm not aware of any mfr. who makes a tested or listed bonding clamp or attachment device. Sure, you can get one of those aluminum bonding devices from your local supply house and screw it against the side of the sheet metal but is that sufficient? Does it work? What size/ type screw? What is the best/ approved attachment point? Does it have to mount directly to the metallic vent system or can it attach to the appliance outer wrap? How are we to bond thin-walled metallic chimney liners? These are problems both for mfrs. and those promulgating these codes and stds.. You have to have these questions answered before you can write a code/ std. that you expect people to comply with.

    Another issue I have is access to rooftops crossing over power lines. In urban and commercial settings, it is common for the only roof access to be where a ladder must be raised over and in close proximity to energized power lines and service entrance cables. The use of fiberglass ladders alone is insufficient protection for the technician and calling the utility to apply dielectric rubber blankets and covers is not feasible for service calls. We need solutions. Same for weather heads and masts located at the only ladder access point. What should be the minimum clearance? Fun stuff but one that almost fried me not too long ago.

    I'm not the sparky Timebuilder is but would love to sit in and chat a little when you're in Philly. TB and I meet about once a year for lunch and we're due before long.
    Thx,

  7. #20
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    Actually, we are overdue. I meant to sit in on Jim's class in January, but I could not make it.

    Better catch me before I move to Kansas!
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  8. #21
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    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    There are two questions in the area of CSST:

    1) bonding CSST to help eliminate perforations due to lightning strikes to or near to the property. The NEC has distanced itself from this situation. There is an ongoing discussion in committees about this issue.

    2) bonding the CSST to comply with NEC 250.104 B, which states that gas piping is a type of "other metal piping" that must be bonded to the electrical system. Because gas piping often serves appliances like ranges and dryers that ALSO use electricity, the gas piping falls under the category of "likely to become energized," and therefore it falls under the bonding provision requirements of the article in question.

    This is the only connection at this time between the NEC and CSST tubing manufacturers that sends you to the bonding requirements that are in the National fuel gas code 7.13.2 that has very explicit bonding requirements for bonding CSST.

    250.104 (B) is the bonding requirements for schedule 40 and 80 steel pipe and sizing requirements are based on 250.122 where as standard yellow CSST is sized using 250.66
    Informational Note No. 2: Additional information for gas piping systems can be found in Section 7.13 of NFPA 54-2009, National Fuel Gas Code.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by second opinion View Post


    This is the only connection at this time between the NEC and CSST tubing manufacturers that sends you to the bonding requirements that are in the National fuel gas code 7.13.2 that has very explicit bonding requirements for bonding CSST.
    250.104 (B) is the bonding requirements for schedule 40 and 80 steel pipe and sizing requirements are based on 250.122 where as standard yellow CSST is sized using 250.66
    Informational Note No. 2: Additional information for gas piping systems can be found in Section 7.13 of NFPA 54-2009, National Fuel Gas Code.
    While those requirements do encompass schedule 40 and 80 steel pipe, the intent of the section is to cover ALL "other metal piping."

    Which would include CSST.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  10. #23
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    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    While those requirements do encompass schedule 40 and 80 steel pipe, the intent of the section is to cover ALL "other metal piping."

    Which would include CSST.
    When and if it ever includes CSST there will be a subsection with the bonding requirements that are different than standard steel pipe and will lead to a bonding conductor being dramatically undersized, or one not being used at all if the criteria of 250.104 (B) is used.

  11. #24
    Hi,
    I have older system that is grounded to a 1" copper water line. Line passes through about 20' of clay, 2 feet below surface. Copper line no longer connects to water main, so it is essentially a large grounding rod run horizontally. Water table is such that the clay is at least moist if not wet. Has been in place for 50 years now.

    Since it is now disconnected from the county water supply, is it providing enough of a ground for a residence? If not, I presume I need to add new thicker grounding rods 10 feet apart, etc?

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